Tuesday, February 3, 2015
Roosh As A Subject of Art
Feminist artist Angela Washko recently did an interview with Roosh that she expects to exhibit, and is now following up by seeking women who have had "exchanges" with him. Assuming such women actually exist, who would want to admit it? Although I do recall reading a post by a college student who basically threw herself at Tucker Max so that she could write a mocking account of his less-than-adequate sexual performance. Roosh appears to be both flattered and threatened by this attention.
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Personally I would love to hear the women's side of the story, as I find Roosh something of an unreliable narrator. I'd like to know if any of them were hurt when he turned out not to be what he made himself out to be, and if any of them only gave him a sympathy shag. But as you say, who would want to admit to it?
ReplyDeleteAfter having read the two links I'm actually really irritated that she interviewed Roosh first, she's at risk of derailing the whole project and giving him yet another platform to espouse his nonsense. I'm not going to listen to her interview with him, I'll hold out for her initial goal to talk to the women. I'll be astonished if she doesn't hear back from a single one, it might suggest he's full of shit after all.
ReplyDeleteI’m in two minds about this. On the one hand, GREAT idea to seek out Roosh’s ‘bangs’ and get their side of things.
ReplyDeleteBut in a way, all this ‘radical empathy’ is just giving him a gravitas that he doesn’t deserve. He’s kind of the equivalent of the head of the Flat Earth society. There’s value in exploring the sociology and maybe economics of how someone ends up at the Flat Earth Society. But deciding to invade Flat Earth spaces and hopefully come to some understanding with the Flat Earthers just lends them credibility they don’t deserve.
The red pill is a cultish, pseudo-scientific endeavour and there can be no understanding or meeting halfway.
Having said all that, I look forward to watching the video.
Bodycrimes (who can't seem to get a comment through except as Anonymous!)
Good point. Roosh et al are not interesting in themselves, but interesting in the effect they have on feminists. The artist's admitted obsession with Roosh, the compulsion to react to and interact with him -- I hope she'll explore that.
DeleteThey were probably all too drunk to remember it.
ReplyDeleteOne can only hope.
DeleteI think what was interesting about the interview was there seemed to be a mutual appreciation going on. I date say they both seemed to be enjoying themselves. If it was a boxing match if say that roosh had her on the ropes a few times although she did try to undermine a few points through footnotes. She admits she disagrees with most things he says but kudos for trying to engage without resorting to the usual misogynist rant. I'll be keeping a close eye on this and as to what these girls will say I don't think it will be particularly mind blowing. They'll be the normal he's a jerk but how's that different to the end of most relationships. And as roosh says most European women don't really have the kiss and tell mentality of the west. But a worthy examination of one of the ladders of the red pill movement.
ReplyDeleteI remember trying to talk to some of these guys, meet them "halfway": god knows why, I guess you felt a bit sorry for them, and I was young, idealistic, and felt like all evil had some rational basis that could be cured with understanding.
ReplyDeleteBut, nah, some people are just shitty 'cause they like it. Rewarding it with attention is a poor use of anyone's time. They get nastier, not better.
I'm interested in hearing from the women, too, if indeed they do exist and are willing to identify themselves. I think she shouldn't have publicized her interview with Roosh 'til she had at least a couple of women's interviews in the bag... would YOU come forward after that?! ai
Seems like she may have overplayed her hand there. But maybe not, who knows? !
I see your point but what will the women contribute. Let me put it this way. They'll either say he was good bad or ugly but how is that different to any other relationship. Let's be fair everybody has been gamed to a degree. And does roosh really deserve this invasion of privacy. As the interviewer said he always used false names for his many conquests. Seems like that should at least be extended to him if we are going to be fair. It's only be truly accepting everyone that we can have a truly fair society. Would love to hear your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure Roosh is the best candidate for claiming invasion of privacy, he's already made his private life public time and time again, and he if were concerned about such things I doubt he would have agreed to be interviewed. He's shared plenty of details about the various women in life, and the fact he deceived them with false names just adds to the story I would love to hear their side of. I think you're doing a lot of these women a disservice by assuming they have nothing to contribute, besides grading Roosh's performance or grinding an axe. These women are all individuals with their own cultural backgrounds, experiences and opinions, I would like to know what they think of having been reduced to a series of notches and numbers.
DeleteNot Roosh, but check out the comments. http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/02/09/the-spearhead-paul-elams-dickishness-is-the-fault-of-feminism/
ReplyDeleteStill reactionary, but it's like he calmed down a little or something
Wow, thanks for pointing those out. It seems like Bill is starting to see the light. Maybe being married to a self-identified "feminist" has had a positive influence.
DeleteHis language has certainly calmed down. I swear he used to sound like he was going to spit fire. That said he's still kind of clinging on to his old views and he hasn't really renounced any of his abhorrent ramblings. Though recently he did shut down comments so I think to some extent he knows how abhorrent things come across to others at least.
DeleteI don't really wanna forgive him. His stuff was frankly so abhorrent and his disrespect to me astonishing. I don't care that it may have been an anger phase. He's a grown adult.
Woah, what was he like before? As far as I could read he was taking the whole Feminists = MRAs stance, which is a little unfair I think.
DeleteYeah I wanna hear her side.
DeleteI saw that post. I actually told him that writing a reactionary blog wouldn't do anything to make his life or his kids' better or help men. He them blew up on me as an evil feminazi who wanted to kill his child by forcing her into the marines???!!!! Then proceeded to scream profanities at me. I was like... Wut.
So he seems calmer these days. But still reactionary. And honestly I don't particularly respect him now just because he no longer writes like he's a bomb waiting to explode. When he actually takes responsibility for his previous screeds I'll look.
Ceebarks I saw you chatting it up with him on mammoth. I'm sorry but I don't really trust him to change. He still strikes me as a fundamentally immature, self centered, self pitying guy. Basically a big manchild.
Having read rooshs call to make rape legal I think all men at birth should be DNA profiled and records kept of there whereabouts. Then when one in four of our innocent daughters are raped we can identify the culprit. Surely this is a small price to pay ending rape culture. Civil liberties for women and men who can be trusted and that has to be proved over a number of years. Would love to hear your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI would say no, putting babies on the DNA database is not a price worth paying. For one thing most rape victims know who their attacker is. We need better functioning justice systems and more enlightened attitudes towards sexuality.
DeleteRoosh is the ultimate hypocrite, he spends his life tricking women into sleeping with him then judges women who are sexually active. And his latest nonsense is just trolling on a grand scale.
Just seen this hash tag #endwhitepeople thankfully someone has come out and said what we are all thinking. As a woc I love your blog and the fact that your highlighting inequality
ReplyDeleteWtf is #endwhitepeople? I googled it and only found a couple of references, and most of the tweets to that hashtag were screaming anti-Semitic slurs at someone called Barbara L Spectre. And, what are we all thinking pray tell?
DeleteSadly (IMO), Washko is naive enough not to notice that she's dealing with a narcissistic sociopath and playing straight into his needs for adulation and control over his narcissistic supply. This is often the case with empathetic and even highly intelligent women who set out to "understand" and sometimes "cure" evil in the world, which often takes on the form of "understanding" (and trying to "cure") sociopathy of individual men.
ReplyDeleteWhile they think they are engaged in a noble and useful mission, they end up being exploited by the very sociopaths whom they seek to "understand," if only because they fail to grasp that, contrary to what their projected but misguided empathetic impulses tell them, there is no depth there and nothing special or complex to "understand."
Narcissistic sociopaths like Roosh are as transparent as they present themselves: what you see -- a straightforward pursuit of the most primitive goals (sex, power, and adulation) -- is what you get. There is nothing of value to explore there, I'm afraid (other than perhaps the possible origins of their dysfunction -- but one does not get there by interacting with them, especially not on their terms and territory).
Whether she wants to and realizes it or not (and there is an intriguing question in that), she's just become another "notch" on Roosh's imaginary bedpost.
She does make an insightful observation, however, in this:
" (...) Roosh’s framing of these women makes it clear that he believes he is manipulating them to some degree with his game, however I imagine their experiences are much more complex and much more interesting than Roosh’s one-sided story of conquering victims with logic and reason would ever allow it to be."
This is almost always the case. The proponents of Game erroneously attribute their successes to it, which is only possible because they completely discount women's -- and human -- experience (nor are capable of even acknowledging and grasping it).
I agree, which is why she is best off not engaging with him but sticking with her original concept of tracking down the women.
DeleteI've been checking out how far she's got, and while no one's come forward admitting any connection to Roosh, there are over twenty accounts from women who have encountered men using PUA techniques. The common thread seems to be that they were attracted to these men anyway, and that if anything, the 'game' these guys ran was an impediment to forming intimacy.
I think if 'game' has any value it's that it gives some men the confidence to actually approach women in the first place. But everything else about it is toxic because it encourages you to dehumanize those around you and see them as interchangaeble objects to be manipulated.
Yes to all you've said.
DeleteWhen a PUA / redpillier thinks that he successfully used "game," it is obvious (to anyone not redpillian, that is) it means any or all of the following scenarios:
- the woman thought him cute and/or interesting,
- she liked him right away, despite his pathetic "game" moves, at which she laughed inwardly,
- she was horny / lonely.
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DeleteIsn't there a risk that these women have backwards rationalized that game doesn't work. Let's be fair they all fell for some cad and probably don't want to admit there really not that different from the next girl. Also what do you think are the fundamental differences between game and what women are taught. Obviously all these women are victims but is there anyway we can avoid this game?
ReplyDeleteWho are 'these women'?
DeleteAnd what do you think 'women are taught'?
Backwards rationalization is always a risk that comes with hindsight, in any circumstances, as anon points out above, I'm sure many PUA types attribute their success to game when that might have had nothing to do with it. The denizens of SlutHate have failed at game, and they backwards rationalize that women are to blame because that suits what they want to believe.
DeleteAgain, you're kind of generalizing about women when you describe the 'nice girl fell for a cad, gets bitter about it' trope, and what exactly do you mean by 'there (sic) really not that different from the next girl'? Regarding the differences between game and 'what women are taught', do you mean dating books? In which case they main difference I can see is that game advocates demeaning women to objects with the goal of either having no strings sex, regardless of what the woman wants, or having a relationship based on constant manipulation and domination. On the other hand with the women's dating books I've dipped into before chucking across the room in disgust, the objective is always to have a fulfilling relationship; while sweeping generalizations are made about men (and women), the tone is never disrespectful towards men, there is the presumption that the reader actually likes the guy she wants to go out with.
'Obviously all these women are victims' Really? I think some will feel victimized, especially if they've been egregiously deceived and then treated very badly, but others will just chalk it up to experience. Trouble is game isn't the only form of manipulation out there, it's just a nasty part of being human, and the only way to avoid it to not to trust anybody, which doesn't sound like much fun. I guess a good start would be to teach our children not to be assholes to each other.
You are really the most unconvincing concern-troll ever.
DeleteI know many feminists want the decision of rape extended. Do you think that men who manipulate women into bed with game fall into this category. Surely by punishing these men we can create a fair society.
ReplyDeleteI'm seconding what Ceebarks said, I've been giving you serious responses as sarcasm can be taken out of context. DO YOU think tricking someone into sleeping with you is rape?
DeleteSlow days, eh? Stuck in the house because of snow?
DeleteYes, as ceebarks notes, your concern trolling is lame. Btw, is English your second language (Yohami ;))? Surely you meant 'definition,' and not 'decision.'
No, as far as I know, 'many (or any) feminists' do not want the definition of rape 'extended.'
Rape is and always will be defined as sex without consent. If a woman of legal age, in full mental capacity (not drunk, etc.), willingly (without coercion, threats, etc.) consents to sex with a man, then it is not rape, obviously.
Nice try, though.
Btw, men who manipulate women with game do not do anything illegal, as long as they do not use threats, blackmail, etc. Their behaviors are immoral, however, and typically karma takes care of that (you know, what goes around, comes around).
Have you guys been following the story of the the three English Muslim girls who have fled to Syria to join isis. Obviously these girls are victims of the white patriarchy. How can we stop this happening.
ReplyDeleteReally? Please elaborate and explain how you believe these particular young women are victims of 'white patriarchy'?
DeleteThank you for your comments and yes English is my second language. It's just that if a man and woman are inebriated then surely a woman cannot give consent and the man must be punished for his actions?
ReplyDeleteIt depends how drunk doesn't it? The manosphere is desperate to assert that there are loads of women getting a little tipsy, having one nights and then crying rape the next day. In reality most women who fall into that category just feel embarrassed the next morning and seek to forget all about it.
DeleteI've just read this and am speechless. This man is a rapist. This poor innocent girl.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rooshv.com/she-said-she-wanted-a-serious-relationship-2
Why? In this instance it sounds like she had a consensual rebound encounter after breaking up with her boyfriend. Do you believe that women are somehow sullied by sex? That sounds like Roosh logic. At least with this girl he had the decency to use a condom.
DeleteIf you're going to concern troll us, there are better passages where Roosh reveals his rapey credentials.
I'm shocked that you can bat this off so easy. It seems to me only one of us is really concerned with what these people are doing.
ReplyDeleteIt's worrying to me that you condone this sort of male behavior
ReplyDeleteI don't condone such behaviour, I just don't consider consensual encounters as rape. Provide some actual examples of rape and I'll share your outrage. There's plenty out there.
Delete